Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

[Guest]

1. Absolutely. Aemon is one of the most fascinating characters, and it saddens me that we so little of him, as opposed to how much we see of Dumbledore. The cult analogy is absolutely appropriate, though I think it almost a religion, in itself. The vows they swear are an initiation ceremony by all means; they are a civilization unto themselves. It is by the very definition a cult, I only hesitate to use the word because of the connotations the words bears in American society.

2. I see no logical way Melisandre and Eddard could have had sex unless she raped him. I do not put it past her. Really, I wouldn't. But I think it's near impossible, and it would do nothing for plot; all of GRRM's decisions are key to plot, and Jon's mother would have to be someone of more significance.

3. DRAGON DRAGON DRAGON DRAGONS sorry I just really like DRAGONS

4. I understand that she would kill them, but I don't know if she would bash the skulls of babes against a wall. She might do that exactly, in front of the men, to gain a sick kind of respect from them, I think. To prove she was as much of a man as any of them. While Arya is a strong female character and Cersei is as well, Cersei most certainly suffers from 'penis envy' for lack of a better term, unlike Arya, who embraces that as a woman, she is as good as any man. Cersei merely wishes she were born a man, though she does by all means make use of her feminine aspects.

5. NOT BORED AT ALL. I LIKE HEARING OTHER PEOPLE'S RELIGIOUS VIEWS, REALLY. It interests me. -shrug- Yes, absolutely, these religions appear to be able to coexist peacefully, while Christianity and Paganism most certainly cannot. I think it's very interesting that there is absolutely no prejudice between the Notherners and the Southrons despite the religious implications of origin. The casual manner in which the Night's Watch asked Jon if he still kept to the old gods was interesting, and when we see Bran asking how many knights there are, the Maester replies to him rolling his eyes saying only those who keep to the new gods can be anointed as a knight, so there are 300 or 400 knights, and 3,000 armed lances that are knights but aren't actually knights because of the oaths they swore to another god. I just meant in their characteristics; the old religion is a nature religion, and far more open about sexuality and the such, and the prayers in the weirwood are similar to the traditions of pagan religions of the Wiccans and the cult of Mithras (mithraism? it's been a while since I brushed up on my knowledge of Paganism). Similarly, the new gods would be Christianity, and the High Septon would take the place of the pope, I think. There is no form of Protestant beliefs issuing as of yet, but I think GRRM may develop that later in the series.

6. By all means, he is a favorite character, for his heroism and his flaws alike, and with Sean Bean playing him in the HBO series I'm going to fall in love with him all over again. You know, I think Matt joked once about how if he had to go gay for someone, it would be Sephiroth from Final Fantasy, or Ned. Hahahaha. But there was another quote I wanted to bring up, that had me thinking. It's Jon talking to Aemon.

"Jon, did you ever wonder why the men of the Night's Watch take no wives and father no children?" Maester Aemon asked.

Jon shrugged. "No." he scattered more meat. The fingers of his left hand were slimy with blood, and his right hand throbbed from the weight of the bucket.

"So they will not love," the old man answered, "for love is the bane of honor, the death of duty."

That did not sound right to Jon, yet he said nothing. The maester was a hundred years old, and a high officer of the Night's Watch; it was not his place to contradict him.

The old man seemed to sense his doubts. "Tel lme Jon, if the day should ever come when your lord father must needs choose between honor on the one hand and those he loves on the other, what would he do?"

Jon hesitated. He wanted to asy that Lord Eddard would never dishonor himself, not even for love, yet inside a small sly voice whispered, He fathered a bastard, where was the honor in that? And your mother, what of his duty to her, he will not even say her name. "He would do whatever was right," he said... ringingly, to make up for his hesitation. "No matter what."

"Then Lord Eddard is a man in ten thousand. Most of us are not so strong. What is honor comapred to a woman's love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms... or the memory of a brother's smile? wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is the our great glory, and our great tragedy."

FIRST OF ALL, VERY DUMBLEDORE/GANDALF-ESQUE MOMENT FOR AEMON. Second, that passage is so meaningful, in so many ways. It makes me think for hours. Literally, hours. I spent two hours thinking about that quote today, particularly Aemon's last words there. What is your opinion of that? What would Eddard do? You know, I think Robb needs a bracelet that says WWED, given the amount of times he asks himself that, rofl. Thirdly, do you agree with Aemon, or with Jon? Is love the bane of duty and honor? I might write an essay on this, I don't think I could really say it all here. I don't know what I think myself, honestly. I'm still thinking about it, in terms of the book, and in terms of my own life. The question I think lies in what you believe defines honor.

[Nikki Orwell]

-put on intense pants-

1. I agree about how disappointing it is to get so little Aemon. I can see why we can't, I mean, if we got as much as I wanted about each character, the books would be even longer and more murder weapon-ish. However, I do think Aemon is the Dumbledore, or Gandalf, or obligatory wise man, and therefore, we do have to get more of him. I hope he plays an important role now that the Others are stirring, as I feel he will be able to plan a way to defeat them. OH! HE IS A TARGARYEN. That could mean he gets a dragon, even though he is so old. What if he gets a dragon and uses its fire to beat back the Others?

1.5. I agree that calling it a cult is accurate, but due to the prevailing CULT=BAD mindset, not perfect. It does seem to be a civilisation unto themselves, especially with how they refuse to take part in the actual doings and fighting of the realm. Part of me objects to that. I think part of protecting the realm against the clansmen raiders and the Others means ensuring a strong and just king. However, I can see how they can't interfere, because then they would become tools in rebellions. Imagine if the Night's Watch was part of this struggle for power. They could easily tip the balance. So, I don't know what I want them to do.

2. I agree. Can we use this bullet point to talk about Melisandre? Good! I find her God very intimidating and distasteful. I do not like how she has to turn everyone into her faith, to the point of BURNING the Seven. I do not like burning things, as it reminds me of too many bad things that have happened to Jews and other religions. I like Davos and his struggle to keep to his gods, the new ones. However, Melisandre has some really interesting ideas.

"Are you a good man, Davos Seaworth?" she asked.
Would a good man be doing this? "I am a man," he said. "I am kind to my wife, but I have known other women. I have tried to be a father to my sons, to help them make a place in this world. Aye, I have broken laws, but I never felt evil until tonight. I would say my parts are mixed, m'lady. Good and bad."
"A grey man," she said. "Neither white nor black, but partaking of both. Is that what you are, Ser Davos?"
"What if I am? It seems to me that most men are grey."
"If half an onion is black with rot, it is a rotten onion. A man is good, or he is evil."

Isn't that an oversimplification of humankind? I personally cannot believe that. How can we, when everything depends on perspective? This may be an odd comparison, but I think I am going to use it. To me, it is wrong and almost evil for people to be against gay rights and gay marriage. I look at it as prejudice and stopping people from being happy. It is wrong to me, and therefore people who don't support it are not in the right. Yet, some of these people who deny gay rights honestly believe they are doing the right thing. They think they are helping people not go to hell for eternity by sending them to therapy to become straight. How can they be either good or evil? I see them, in an oversimplification, as evil, while they view themselves as good. How can any one person be right?

"Shadow?" Davos felt his flesh prickling. "A shadow is a thing of darkness."
"You are more ignorant that a child, ser knight. There are no shadows in darkness. Shadows are the servants of light, the children of fire. The brightest flame casts the darkest shadows."

What do you make of this quote? I feel like this is the twisting of reality to suit her beliefs. Which isn't wrong, every religion does so. However, the actuality of shadow can differ, and I find it interesting that every time Davos says the dark is protecting us, Melisandre finds a way to spin it so it is the protection of the light.

3. DRAGONS ARE AWESOME! I WANT A PET DRAGON. I WOULD FEED IT GOATS AND COWS AND SMALL YAPPY DOGS AND REMEMBER TO BRUSH ITS SCALES. CAN I HAS A DRAGON?

4. Cersei does have such penis envy, which does make me like her a little less. She isn't an empowered woman for sake of being a strong woman. She is a strong woman because she wants to be as close to a man as possible. I am not saying she wants to be a man, however. I think she just wants power, and recognises that the only way to have true power is to be a man. So, I agree that she would only smash heads against a wall if it brought her significant power increase and made people fear her. After all, she would rather rule through fear than love, and I think she is willing to do a lot to maintain that. I think part of Cersei's penis envy manifests itself in her blatant sexuality. She uses her sexuality as a trap for men almost, like she is proving to herself she can be better than a man with a penis because she can make them want her, do what she desires. She uses sex to set herself above men. What do you think?

4.5. I think Arya is an example of a truly empowered woman. She wants to be strong and a fighter because that is who she is but not to become manly. She finds an equilibrium.

5. I think the lack of prejudice comes from the length of time they have coexisted. However, there are some things that do show that there is prejudice. Your example of the knighthood is one of them. You HAVE to be a follower of the Seven to be a knight, a ser. It doesn't matter your prowess with a sword or your morals. The Mountain is a clear example that you can follow the Seven and be a horrible person. Yet, he can still be a knight when other more honourable men cannot. The fact this exists makes me think there may be tension underlying the two religions that we haven't seen yet. I see what you mean about the aspects of the other religions. The old religion does have more pagan aspects, and the tree thing makes me thing of how Druids used to pray in forests. At least, I think they did. I need to take a comparative religion class... I know so little about religions. Another tie between the new gods and Christianity is how they view God. Within Christianity there is the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, three facets of the one God. Within the new belief system, there are seven gods that are reflections of the one whole God. So, there is the unification through different faces of God. And seven is a number that pops up in many religions. I think that Melisandre's religion is also similar to Christianity in of the fact it seems very missionary.

Oy... everything above this is 1189 words. I talk a lot.

6. I think the view of honour is very important to how to answer this question. I mean, my first priority is my family. My cousin was talking to my dad and me, and mentioned how I wouldn't punch anyone unless they hurt my family. And then, I would be the worst enemy anyone has ever had. I think that is very true of me. I mean, this Sunday, I spent a few hours with my baby cousins. N is three and M is around ten weeks old. I would do anything to protect them. If anyone hurt either of them, I really think I could kill. Just because they mean so much to me. When people hurt my brother, I see red, because only I am allowed to hurt his feelings. The same with most of my family. And I definitely can see myself doing something 'not honourable' like hitting when someone's back is turned, or scratching, or biting, or hair pulling. Because no one fucks with my family. So in a way, love is the bane of honour because I would chose my family over honour any day. But in a way, since they are so key to me, my honour is tied to keeping them safe. So wouldn't it be honourable to do anything to help and protect them? I can't decide who to agree with. I know I look down on Sir Thomas More for dying to show his devotion to his beliefs and leaving his family to fend for himself around King Henry VIII. Was what he did honourable? Is dying for your beliefs honourable? Is it a double standard when I think what happened at Masada incomparably brave? Or the deaths of the Jewish martyrs brave? For example, this story is one of the most beautiful martyr stories I have heard, and I find the rabbi incredibly honourable.

The version in the Babylonian Talmud (Berachot 61b) tells it as a response of Akiva to his students, who asked him how even now—as he is being tortured—he could yet offer prayers to God. He says to them, "All my life I was worried about the verse, 'with all your soul,' (and the sages expounded this to signify), even if He takes away your soul. And I said to myself, when will I ever be able to fulfill this command? And now that I am finally able to fulfill it, I should not? Then he extended the final word Echad ("One") until his life expired with that word.

He is talking about the Shema and Veyahvata, within which it is commanded to love God with all your heart, soul, and might, and happens to be the most important prayers in Judaism. He dies for his beliefs like Sir Thomas More, only I admire him. I think it is hypocritical, but I can't help it.
Within the story, I think Ned would pick his honour over his love, because that is how he needs to act in the eyes of the country, especially as Hand. He needs to put himself and his needs below the needs of the realm. His duty and honour as Hand become secondary to his love and his family. So, while I think it would kill him, he would do what his duty and honour require him to do. However, had he not become Hand, I do think he would chose love. He takes he oaths and offices seriously, so if he were not in the situation where he had to be the Hand of the Kind, virtually running the realm, he could do what he wanted for his family. Does that make sense?

And that was a post with 1804 words...

[Guest]

... I'll reply to this when I can...
<3

[Guest]

I AM WORKING ON MY REPLY I SWEAR
I JUST WANT TO QUOTE OSMETHING I DIED LAUGHING AT

WE NEED TO DO THIS IC, ONLY WITH BROOMSTICKS, NOT HORSES

"Would you make me your captain for the night, my lord prince?" She had the wickedest smile he'd ever seen on a woman.

"I might. If I knew you'd steer me safe into port. And there's no one better with ropes and knots." One handed, she undid the lacing of his breeches, then grinned and stepped lightly away from him. "A pity I'm a woman wed, and new with child."

Flustered, Theon laced himself back up. "I need to start back to the castle. If you do not come with me, I will lose my way for grief, and all the islands would be poorer.

"We couldn't have that... but I have no horse, my lord."

"You could take my squire's mount."

"And leave your poor squire to walk all the way up to Pyke?"

"Share mine, then."

"You'd like that well enough." The smile again. "Now, would I be behind you, or in front?"

"You would be wherever you liked."

"I like to be on top."

Where has this wench been all my life? thought Theon.

I LOVE ASHA. I LOVE HER SO MUCH.
SHE IS BELLATRIX, WITHOUT A DOUBT.
AND THEON IS SO SIRIUS.
THE GREYJOYS ARE THE BLACKS, WE KNOW IT, WE DO.

[Nikki Orwell]

Sooooooooo true!

[Guest]

I love her comebacks, so much. Especially when they go into the hall, and he's like WAIT ALL OF THAT WAS LIES!
And she's like, uh... No. One thing wasn't a lie! Remember when I said I like to be on top?

I love her.

[Nikki Orwell]

She is, in fact, amazing.

[Guest]

Oh, I forgot to mention. I realized why I love Sam so much.
He reminds me of Joel on so many levels.
I tried to explain it to him but I failed.
Can we find him a Jon now?

[Nikki Orwell]

Aww... we do! I'll keep my eyes open.
-will go up to every guy who reminds me of Jon and be like, "You gay? You wanna go to Ohklahoma?"-

[Tristan Raksha]

And from what I know of Christianity and pagan battles, that was not the case. To be fair, all of my knowledge comes from the Avalon series by Marion Zimmer Bradley, which you should totally read if you haven't.

Fuck yeah!! FOREST HOUSE!! i owns it.


umm i tried to read all of the stuff in the posts...but i couldn't just some key things.

I automatically guessed about the cat.

I dislike Sam with a passion so far. He doesn't seem redeemable, but we;ll see.

I think Bran should learn magic...

My favourite character is Arya without a doubt followed by Tyrion.

I liked Ned but he was too...stiff. IDK. Honour is good and all, as long as you don't die for it. I liked Catelyn better.

Anyone else think that Lysa is going to marry Robert (her son)? i do...

I like the idea of the dragons going out to a dragon-blood, but from the first book? i don't think they will. I think they're bonded to Dany because they drank her milk...that's how you tame a dragon, is by feeding it milk.

As for the religions, i totally knew it was something like the whole Christian/Pagan thing when they introduce the Sept and Godswood. Totally the same way early Christianity was, if i remember correctly. They ived in peace for a while (Remember the Isle of Avalon Nikki? They got along till Joseph died). I'm too late to get into my religious beliefs though XD so i won't explain, but yours was interesting Nikki

the Hound is totally the Lancelot (since Lanelot wasn't beautiful, if i remember correctly) of the series, and Sansa the Guinivere i think. IDK i just see her falling in love with him, the useless bitch (remember i'm only on the first book) because he's being nice to her...and he's pitiable.

Anyone ele think the Knight of Flowers is gay? I do.


And i really hope Sam gets better because at the moment i kind of feel offended being compared to him >.> he's so worthless.

[Nikki Orwell]

FOREST HOUSE! <3 I went through this intense Marion Zimmer Bradley phase in like, eighth and ninth grade. I own practically all of that series.

Sam gets so much better, or I think he does.

Bran totally should! I hope he does!

Arya is incredible. She is my favourite, followed by Robb and Jon, followed by Cersei, Jamie and Tyrion.

YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT KYSA. OMR EWWW!

I like your idea about the Arthurian characters.

The Knight of Flowers probably is... -adds another gay man to list of fictional crushes- -sighs-

[Tristan Raksha]

XD i was finding instances where the Arthurian stories kinda worked the same, idk lol.

As for Lysa...he's like what, 5? i forget. and he's STILL breast feeding?? I mean really, how disgusting...


have you read Mercedes Lackey's Gwynefar, The White Spirit (spelling may be wrong)? She based it off of Marion Zimmer Bradley's Britain and i loved it. It was a tribute to her, since she died recently or something...

[Nikki Orwell]

I haven't read that one by Mercedes Lackey. -adds to list- I love her as an author though.

Yeah, it is gross. There is a scene int eh movie The Last Emperor, or something like that, where the emperor is around eight, and he breast feeds from his nanny. -is scarred for life-

[Sirius Black]

... Yeah, the Knight of Flowers.
He's the KNIGHT of FLOWERS.
If he's not gay, I'll suck my own imaginary dick.

... Lysa/Robert? Ucky, but probable.

[Sirius Black]

NIKKI TELL ME YOU FINISHED THE THIRD BOOK.
TELL ME.
I HAVEN'T FINISHED IT YET BUT IT IS BECAUSE I CANNOT.
I AM SOBBING MORE THAN I HAVE EVER SOBBED.

TELL ME YOU FINISHED IT SO I CAN HUG SOMEONE OVER THIS. PLEASE.
I WILL FINISH IT TODAY AND I WILL FINISH A FEAST FOR CROWS BY TOMORROW I BET I CANNOT STOP READING.

[Sirius Black]

ALSO I JUST FOUND OUT SOMETHING FROM AN INTERVIEW I SHOULD NOT HAVE READ BECAUSE OF SPOILERS
BUT I THOUGHT IT WAS FUNNY GIVEN WHAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT BEFORE I POSTED.

Renly Baratheon and Ser Loras the Knight of Flowers were gay lovers.
I am dead with laughter.

Well, we knew for certain Renly was gay; Cersei and Jaime both insinuated it in the first book, and Stannis basically called Renly a fag to his face in A Clash of Kings, but I'm amused to know Loras and Renly were together-- seems appropriate, yes? But amusing since they're both as flamboyant as Fabian.

Other characters Martin has outed in the third book so far (yes I'm keeping track for amusement):
Xaro Xhoan Daxos
Some random priest whose name I forgot who liked to fondle small boys... *dies of laughter*
and there was another but I forgot who.

[Sirius Black]

With that said, I just found this. The page numbers are off if you have the paperback versions like I do, but if you skip back in your books a few chapters it's easy to find the scenes again based on whose chapter it is.

http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/mlarchives/faq/lorasrenly.html

I picked up on most of it, but I missed some of it; I hadn't noticed, for example, anything from A Game of Thrones; Renly was such an insignificant character at that point in time, I didn't pay much mind to who he was speaking with, be it his newlywed wife or his friend Loras.

[Sirius Black]

*has posted in this thread too many times today*

I
CAN'T
STOP
CRYING

DO NOT CLICK SPOILER IF YOU HAVEN'T READ THE THIRD BOOK

Spoiler:

[Nikki Orwell]

I HAVEN'T READ IT YET.
I WILL BORROW IT FROM THE LIBRARY AND READ IT ASAP.

[Sirius Black]

FUCK YOU HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO HUG YOU IF YOU HAVEN'T READ IT
GO NOW
MAKE YOUR DAD GO GET IT HE WILL UNDERSTAND THE NEED FOR MORE GRRM BOOKS

[Sirius Black]

Third book. I finished it last night.
Easily the best one. Starting book four.

[Nikki Orwell]

I DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ BECAUSE OF SENIOR YEAR AND COLLEGE APPS.
FML.
F!M!L!

[Guest]

Oh. Something you might be warned about... there are a LOT of sex scenes in this one, twice as many as the first two put together... and two of them are lesbian sex scenes. I guess GRRM was feeling horny...

[Nikki Orwell]

LESBIAN SEX SCENES?
WHAT?
-tries to figure out who-
PLEASE TELL ME IS ISN'T CATELYN/LYSA.
OR CERSEI/SANSA.

[Guest]

Daenerys/Irri.

-is dead-

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